An interview with N.T. Wright

In the bonus video that comes with the new Wesley Ministry Network course, Simply Christian, N.T. Wright speaks with Richard Hays of Duke Divinity School about the book the new course is based on and important faith issues. This in-depth, 75 minute conversation is divided into nine sections that can be viewed independently or together. The following is an excerpt from the section "Evil."

Hays: I wanted to ask you about the problem of evil and the extent to which the world has or has not been put to rights. [The language you use toward the end of your book] sounds as though evil has been defeated in the story. It is hard to see how that fits with what you write in the whole first part of the book about the fact that we as human beings continue to feel caught in situations where injustice prevails, where we're not able to have the kinds of relationships we want and where ugliness triumphs over beauty.

So, could you explain to me where you are on this question?  I found it confusing to understand what you actually believe about whether God has put all things to rights or whether, as Paul writes in Romans 8, we find ourselves still in a situation of groaning along with an unredeemed creation and still awaiting the redemption of our bodies.

Wright: I really want to say both of these things at the same time, as the New Testament says both of these things at the same time. When I read John 20 and 21, what I find is a sense of a new world that has been born, even though the people who are taking forward the project of this new creation, which really has begun, are going to suffer for it. Peter is told, "When you're older, somebody will take you where you don't want to go." The implication is that Peter, too, is to suffer and die for his following of Jesus.

But the whole point is that with the resurrection, something has been unleashed upon the world so, as Paul writes in Colossians, the "gospel has been preached to every creature under heaven and I, Paul, became its minister." I think what is going on there, and you see it in a variety of places, is the death of Jesus really was the judicial condemnation of evil so that evil has lost any ultimate power it might have had. And you see this in Romans 6 as well that with the death and resurrection of Jesus, when you join that movement in baptism, you are leaving behind the sphere where sin is actually the ultimate ruler, and you are entering a new sphere where God is the ultimate ruler, and all new things are possible. 

I think that the point about Romans 6 is that we don't realize that actually the ultimate power of sin has been defeated, and as Christians we have the right to say no to it. Most people assume there's no point in even fighting it, because you're not going to win. The key to all of this is the very difficult notion of forgiveness, that forgiveness is actually a possibility. 

I explore this in my book Evil and the Justice of God. When Jesus told the disciples in Luke 24 what they were to do, he said, "The messiah should suffer and rise from the dead and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be announced to all the nations, beginning with Jerusalem." And I don't think that means that now you as an individual, if you repent, your sins will be forgiven. It does mean that [and more]. I think it means a new way of life has been unleashed upon the world where reconciliation is actually possible at last, where the things that have divided the nations and torn them apart can actually be addressed.

The great Yale theologian Miroslav Wolf has written about this, the way in which evil can be named and put to rest, and fresh relationships can begin. Now, that is hugely difficult, because it is a matter of implementing the achievement of the cross. When you're implementing the achievement of the cross, it often feels as though you're going through a crucifixion all over again. But this is what I've come down to say is that it's the difference between achieving something and implementing it. And the illustration I use is the musical composer writes this great symphony or oratorio - what do the conductor and the choir have to do? They don't have to write it again. They have to learn it and sing it and get other people to join in. If they wrote it again, they would imply that the music was bad and needed redoing. So what I'm emphasizing is that with the death and resurrection of Jesus, there has been that achievement like the writing of the music, which really has done what was necessary. What is then given to the church to do in the power of the Spirit, is to go and implement it, to learn to sing the music so that the rest of the world can then join in.

Hays: The phrase "in the power of the Spirit is," of course, very important because otherwise this distinction between achieving and implementation sounds as though it leaves us the sort of situation that you find in Rudolph Bultmann's interpretation of Paul, where he says the gospel is the possibility of salvation.

Wright: I don't want to say it's a mere possibility. I do want to say that something has actually been achieved, that there is a new reality launched upon the world with the death and resurrection of Jesus. Something has happened. I think that's what the gospel writers are telling us in every way they can. In other words, I don't want to be left with a mere possibility, Bultmann-style.

Hays: But you see how what you said that sound like that.

Wright: Well, I think you have to say it both ways. I want to, but isn't this the opposite of the accusation that you were making five minutes ago, that you're now saying it's a mere possibility, that sounds as though it's an under-realized eschatology. If you say this is an over-realized eschatology, you sound as though it's all happened, so how come there's still evil out there. And I'm saying, well, what has happened leaves us with this task to implement. And then you're saying, well, if it's now only a possibility, does that mean Bultmann-like that nothing has really happened

Hays: It's the other side of the point, the other side of the problem.

Wright: Yes. So you've got to say both at the same time. And yes, I love Romans 8. Romans 8 is one of my main passages. For me Romans 8 is absolutely essential. That present groaning, Paul says, "We are saved in hope," and the "we are saved" is a past event, but the hope qualifies it, so you can't just say, "Oh, that's right, we're saved, no worries now." And the hope doesn't mean that nothing has happened yet. And as Christians we live in precisely that tension.

Hays: How do you deal with experiences of suffering that are not the result of human failure to implement what Christ has achieved, that is to say disease, natural disasters.

Wright: Tsunamis.

Hays: Tsunamis - that's the sort of reality that seems to threaten this notion that a new creation has actually broken in Christ.

Wright: I think the first thing to say is there is no solution to the problem of evil. Rowan Williams, now Archbishop of Canterbury, once asked, "Would it be immoral to try and solve the problem of evil?" And I think the answer is yes, it would be, because if you could say to yourself, "Ah, now we see, this is why there are volcanoes and tsunamis and so on. It's so that this greater good may occur." Then you have belittled the problem. And we mustn't belittle the problem. That is, to trivialize the radical tragedy that the world is still suffering from. 

I hold open that maybe there are interconnectednesses we don't know about. But I still want to say, that tectonic plate's got to do what a tectonic plate's got to do. It wasn't because of terrorism or because of politicians doing something. This tsunami just happened. And this remains a mystery. But it remains a mystery to which God the creator is the ultimate answer in ways which at the moment I don't know and can't know. And if what I know about God the creator includes the fact that he has given his son to bear the weight of the world's evil, then my calling is not to explain why there are tsunamis and diseases. My calling is to say that God the creator is with us in the middle of the mess, bearing the worst on himself and making new creation out of that. 

And one of the things which I explore in the other book, the Evil and the Justice of God, is something to do with forgiveness, again. That when somebody does something to me that really hurts me and is a wicked thing, when I forgive them, I not only release them from the burden of my anger, but I release myself from the burden of being consumed by anger. And I sometimes wonder if, when God forgives the world for its evil, one of the things that happens is God is released from the burden of all the problems of this world that he's made. Now, I just offer that as a cautious exploration into paths which I don't think we've normally trodden. But it's based on what I know of the meaning of forgiveness and trying to think of what that actually means for God.

Hays: That's an extraordinary speculation. I have to think about that one for a while.